Get roof quotes

We cannot insulate our roof until we replace the old shingles and fix our rotting and dilapidated soffits.
I’m in favor of textured steel shingles such as Great American Steel Shake - Green American Home in a light color, to reflect more sunlight in the summertime and bring cooling bills down. Some relevant previous research into this area, and making me realize I don’t like the standing vertical seam of a normal metal roof after all.

Solar panels mounted on metal roof

The seam can look all right, and even nice, in a farm setting or in the country, but in the city brings to mind cheap temporary buildings and pre-manufactured homes, which is a shame to pair with our old brick house. There’s no reason we can’t have the look of shingles and the benefits of metal material (long lasting, lightweight).

Alternatively, we can use a dark shingle color, and run black tubing underneath to be a water pre-heating (“hillbilly heater”), since we need hot water all year round.

Solar panel quote possibilities:

Got one quote back on the roof from Diverno (https://www.dinvernoremodeling.com/) who did the roof + gutters on my house (on Hanover) for $15,000 total. Their quote for 3731 Northwestern is $22,000 including gutters.

1 Like

Paul from Diverno got back today after I asked if there was a way to get the price down closer to what we paid and he said he spoke with the company and they can work to meet a lower budget/cost. The updated quote he gave is $16,461. Also, based on my conversation with Paul, I asked the Diverno Paul if Paul and possibly another person could be involved in doing the roof in order to learn how to do it. He said it was the first time he got that request but he was going to see if it might be possible. He said the main issue would be working out liability insurance and workers comp. I’ll report back when he gets back to me.

1 Like

Thanks for doing this @adrian I look forward to hearing back what he has to say. $16k is a much lower than before.

The metal shingle I’ve found that appears the most durable and lightweight with a limited lifetime warranty is Great American Steel Shake, in the link in the original post.

I scheduled a quote from Alexandria Home Solutions in West Bloomfield for this Friday, Nov 12th, 9am-12noon. Their online tool, for a metal roof, estimated $8 - $15 / sq.ft. cost (materials and labor).

The 3731 roof is approximately 857 sq.ft., so that gives us a cost range of $6,856 - $12,855. Of course, there are probably other considerations than just this cost, so I will speak to the Alexandria representative. I am also looking to buy the shingles directly.

The Alexandria roof quote was much more expensive, but gave me a chance to look at metal shingles in person.

These are samples from Isaiah, the makers of Great American Steel Shake, and Boral

An approach we can take, which would put us in more control of the costs of the job, is to order the shingle we want wholesale, or find it surplus at a building supply company, and then hire a contractor to install it.

Contractors who order materials for a job, mark them up.

Paul from Diverno and he said the company was will to let @cryptogoth and another person who may be interested to participate in the roofing job. It would not be official participation but on your own accord for the purposes of learning.

Their final quote is $16,000 but the cost will increase on Dec 1st.

1 Like

Thanks for this work @adrian this is the best roofing quote I’ve seen this season, and the additional effort to teach us how to do future roofs is very valuable. I may not have time to help before I leave for the winter. @Dame @slimbandana313 would you be interested in working alongside the professional roofer from Diverno to redo the roof on 3731? It would be a paid job, I’m open to what’s a fair hourly rate or total job rate, and also making sure we all have our own workman’s comp insurance.

Workmans Compensation

It is common for Michigan LLCs to exclude employees (members) who are also managers and own at least 10% of the company, as well as their family members.

This would be a reason to file a separate LLC for 3731, giving 10% to every member who wishes to do large contracting work for 3731, and the remaining (greater than 50%) percentage ownership to Detroit Arcology LLC, governed by contributions on this forum.

I’ll present a more detailed proposal in a separate thread.

Two More Requests for Diverno

I have two more requests for Diverno, both geared towards helping us keep maximum knowledge and skills for future Arcology rehabs. I’m happy to speak with Diverno Paul directly if you think it’s a good idea. Thanks for your patience, these steps will make it much faster and easier to do future roofing jobs.

Hire a dumpster

Four layers of asphalt shingles is very heavy and takes a lot of space, and we can also use the time to demolish the kitchen, bathroom, and other areas with structural weakness in the house at the same time, as well as remove the illegal dumping across the street in the empty field.

In consultation with the neighbors, we can park the dumpster in the alleyway for 2 weeks, and also offer to dispose of any of their construction debris or trash as well.

We can rent a 20 yard dumpster for $470 for 2 weeks from Waste Management

We can also use whoever Diverno would recommend, as the goal is to better understand the cost structure of a roof job for the future, and to open source it.

Metal tiles

@adrian I’d like to use metal tiles as you suggested, in particular flat ones from Boral that look like asphalt tiles (to match the neighborhood) and can take a roofmount solar panel system. They are available wholesale from Calculating Materials For Your New Metal Roof - Mid-Michigan Metal Sales

This will probably delay when we can start the roofing job based on when materials can arrive, unless Diverno already has these or a similar metal tile in stock (e.g. Isaiah’s Great American Steel Shake).

They are probably more expensive than what Diverno was planning to use, but also have been shown to last longer (40 years or more) as opposed to an asphalt roof which needs replacing every 25 years.

If Diverno is okay with us purchasing our own materials with their advice, especially if they don’t carry metal tile, I’d be open to discussing a change in the $16,000 that is still advantageous to them as consultants / supervisors.

Feedback and opinions on this proposal, especially disagreeing with me or skepticism, are very welcome.

1 Like

@cryptogoth Getting a dumpster that can hold waste for roof plus other demo work is a great idea, and perhaps we can share the cost with Diverno and/or share the dumpster they already planned on using.

Regarding metal roofs, when I asked Diverno Paul about that, here is what he said:

We do not do metal roofs. To do them properly it must be stripped, re-sheeted and fully covered with High Heat Ice Guard, which makes it considerably more expensive.

Although it could reduce the frequency of maintenance, it doesn’t seem clear to me that it would reduce cost overall in the long-term. Its worth noting that from my understanding replacing shingles in 25-35 years as part of regular roof maintenance is much cheaper than what we currently need (full redecking). I don’t think it’s necessary to get a metal roof, and another consideration is very few people have them in Detroit. Some neighbors may not like the aesthetic of metal since its not in line with the rest of the block.

1 Like

@adrian do you know if this quote includes soffits, fascia, and gutters? thanks again for putting it together. I’ll call Diverno as well to see if I can reach Paul. I think this could be a great direction to teach and raise the standards of all the contractors in this neighborhood, as well as get a high quality roof.

I had a good call with Paul from Diverno today. He said the quote includes fascia but not soffits or gutters, but he can put our old gutters aside for us.

He’ll email the quote tomorrow, I verbally accepted it over the phone. Thanks again for setting this up again @adrian I’ll try to set up a time in December, and use the dumpster to get rid of our construction debris as well as cleaning up our neighborhood trash across the street.

I won’t be around to learn roofing unfortunately, but I’m excited to offer this as an opportunity to members of our community here who are interested in leveling up their roofing skills and working towards getting licensed.

1 Like

Sounds great, let me know if you need help meeting Diverno or otherwise coordinating things on the ground. @cryptogoth Did Paul say it was OK to throw some debris from other demo work into the dumpster they bring out?

On another note, are you still trying to save the cedar shake? Did you ask Paul if they could set that aside?

Good questions I’ll ask more tomorrow about dumpster and yes the cedar shake is both valuable and beautiful to reuse for other projects, perhaps decorative siding for a small A-frame on other land. Diverno’s Paul will probably meet with you @adrian to choose the color of the shingle.

Arcology colors are teal and brown, so something deep / dark blue is my first preference. It will pair well with both yellow front brick and red side brick.

What do you think?

Thanks Paul.

I’d like to accept your quote for a roof installation some time this month, supervising  one or two of my contractor colleagues who will help you with the work. Please let me know what days are available, and I’ll coordinate choosing shingle colors with my business partner Adrian.

Also, may we use any dumpster you rent to dispose of other construction debris, and other trash from the neighborhood?

Best, Paul
On Wednesday, December 1, 2021, 6:03 PM, Paul Mccann <pmccann67@gmail.com> wrote:

Storm Guard Premium Roof
-strip all roofing 
-resheet entire roof with new OSB Plywood
-install fascia boards where missing or bad
-New: metal drip edge, ice guard rubber membrane, stack boots, collars, flashing, sealer, synthetic deck armor and vents
-35 Year HD Dimensional Roofing Shingles
-full clean up
Total Price: $16,481
$6,000 check down
$6,000 check upon completion
$4,481 CASH 💸 upon completion

Both Checks made our to: Good Choice Construction 

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021, 02:28:20 PM MST, Paul Pham paulpham@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Paul,

I hope you’re well, excuse the delay since last we spoke.

Unfortunately, I think my business partners and I need more time to come up with the funding for the down-payment.

While we’re working on it, can you confirm with a website showing the business address for Good Home Construction?

We would be issuing your business the $6000 check via Bank of America’s online billpay, so we want to be sure that you’re able to cash the check. Also, I have concerns about performing the roof work during the winter time while temperatures are so low, and we are already having trouble heating our home. Asking our housemates to leave the house for two or more days during roof work wouldn’t be feasible. Are we able to reserve a spot on your spring schedule with the price in your quote, if we pay the down payment this winter?

Thanks very much, and have a happy holiday season.

Best, Paul

On Thursday, December 2, 2021, 12:37:53 PM MST, Paul Mccann pmccann67@gmail.com wrote:

Will do.

Yes. I will be there Wednesday.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021, 12:34 PM Paul Pham <paulpham@yahoo.com> wrote:

Wonderful, any photos or recordings you take are much appreciated too. Would it be possible to meet Adrian and Damien in person next Wednesday, Dec 8th, from 3-4pm?

At the same house, 3731 Northwestern St.

If you can email the contract over before then, we’ll read it and have the check ready.

I hope you have a great day, thanks Paul.

On Thursday, December 2, 2021, 9:32 AM, Paul Mccann <pmccann67@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds good, thank you.

It’s workable. They can observe and record. We supply TONS of pictures on every job.

We don’t need any equipment. And the supplier delivers the shingles to the top of the house, the ridge, using a crane with conveyor belt.

So just have them observe and record.

Let me know if the meeting will be today or tomorrow.

Thanks,

Paul

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021, 11:16 AM Paul Pham <paulpham@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for clarifying Paul. it’s important to me to find some way to record the roof installation and let workers observe and participate to improve their own skills. It could be 50% observing and 50% participating in simpler tasks that you specify.

My partners would waive their rights to workman’s comp or liability claims by becoming 10% owners of the LLC that owns the house. We own our own scaffolding and ladders and can help with many tasks at height, such as taking down shingles or bringing up new material. So your company would not be liable for them at all.

Thank you for your price adjustment. Let me know if any of the above sounds workable.

Best, Paul

On Thursday, December 2, 2021, 4:28 AM, Paul Mccann <pmccann67@gmail.com> wrote:

Because of Liability Insurance & workman’s compensation, I cannot use any of your guys.

I did adjust the price as if I were to do so; but I cannot. We did not get to that topic the other day.

We have our own Roofing Dumpsters on wheels. That Dumpster will be full. From the site the old Roofing Materials go to a Transit Station on Outer Drive. The Roofing Materials then get hauled to Ann Arbor, Michigan for separation and recycling :recycle:. There can be no other Materials put into the Dumpster(s) even if there were to be some room left. No garage. Roofing Material from that house only.

I can meet today or tomorrow to pick the colors, sign the contract and pick up the first check. To get it done this month, time is of the essence. Right now, material prices are going up every month and they always go up the 1st of the year.

Thank you for your business.

Paul

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021, 11:45 PM Paul Pham <paulpham@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks Paul.

I’d like to accept your quote for a roof installation some time this month, supervising one or two of my contractor colleagues who will help you with the work. Please let me know what days are available, and I’ll coordinate choosing shingle colors with my business partner Adrian.

Also, may we use any dumpster you rent to dispose of other construction debris, and other trash from the neighborhood?

Best, Paul

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021, 6:03 PM, Paul Mccann <pmccann67@gmail.com> wrote:

Storm Guard Premium Roof

-strip all roofing

-resheet entire roof with new OSB Plywood

-install fascia boards where missing or bad

-New: metal drip edge, ice guard rubber membrane, stack boots, collars, flashing, sealer, synthetic deck armor and vents

-35 Year HD Dimensional Roofing Shingles

-full clean up

Total Price: $16,481

$6,000 check down

$6,000 check upon completion

$4,481 CASH :money_with_wings: upon completion

Both Checks made our to: Good Choice Construction

I am working on a material estimate to get a better idea of how much the job actually cost, that way we can decide if we want to do the job ourselves. @cryptogoth I believe you stated the roof was around 850 sq ft so in roofing terms that would be 8.5 or 9 square. 33 sheets of 7/16 osb at todays price of $17 is $561; the price to re-deck the roof. 33 bundles of GAF HD shingles at todays price of $30 is $990; the price to re-shingle the roof. We would also need lumber for the fascia boards and drip edge etc but the cost is MUCH LESS than the quotes that were given.

1 Like

Thanks @Dame more material quotes are always useful. I also value a professional licensed roofer who can do a high quality job and also teach us and anyone in the neighborhood who is interested in learning more about roofs, what to look for, and how to take care of them. I know our neighbors down the street wanted work done on their fascia earlier in the summer.

I’ve never done a roof before personally, and when I was in Missouri, I definitely valued being able to put up walls and stairs by someone experienced and who had done it before with a good final result that I could see for myself.

Diverno, who gave us the $16k quote, said they couldn’t let us help after all, but we could take all the videos and pictures we want. That would be good enough for me, as long as someone was on-site that could ask questions during the work. Every contractor I hire, I try to get as much value out of the visit as possible by learning. @Dame do you know any other licensed and insured roofers who would teach us, maybe from the carpentry school? Thanks.

1 Like

I believe I gave you the # to Martino a few months ago. Its not an issue of quotes I believe a decision needs to made of the direction of we will go in. Are we subbing out the roof or are we going in house. The roof is the biggest cost of the rehab so its important to know. If there are enough members of DAC, perhaps we should form the board of directors and name the officers of the corporation.

Yes, I did get a quote from Martino Roofing in August, it was for around $23k including soffits and fascia. Thanks for the number. I ended up not going with it because I thought we could get a better price and the roof wasn’t urgent at that time. (We didn’t have running water then).

Here’s the detailed quote:

The ultimate decision for roofing, and all other rehab and responsibility, for 3731 is mine, with feedback gathered from everyone on the forum, with more weight given to partners who co-invest money and are LLC partners. I’m asking you all to trust me to drive this process to a successful sale, as a model for future houses, until we have an equitable system in place with feedback from many, many people.

Future houses can be directed by anyone else who wants to devote time and take responsibility for bringing a house up to code, approved by the board of directors.

You’re right, we do need directors with a long term view looking out for the neighborhood, future low income buyers, and to provide oversight over the rehabbers and investors. The directors can help draft bylaws. This is a slow and deliberate process that many other groups spend years doing, and as mentioned in the lawyer meeting, will probably take us at least one year, and even after that, is subject to change based on the community, future homeowners, rehabbers, everyone.

The directors would be for the parent company, and we should all be starting conversations with community partners for good candidates. For example, Ms. Carolyn Baker who owns the two houses across the street from 3731, Joeleo Smith who started Black Bottom Cyber Cafe, George from 360 Detroit, Sara Elbohy from the Land Bank, one of the lawyers from Detroit Justice Center, someone from United Housing Coalition or U-SNAP BAC, someone from a neighboring block club, other owners on the Facebook group, or Pat, the man who bought the house across the street from the Griggs house. This is a much bigger part of Detroit Arcology Cooperative / DAC beyond house rehabbing that we definitely need help and to focus more time and energy on.

Thanks for mentioning it.